Posts by Sea Breeze

If you discount the benefits the bible describes in the here and now, I guess you could say that. But, I wouldn't. I'm having a pretty good time in the Sanctification phase of the process. Learning a lot with eyes wide open.

The exception is if we happen to still be alive when the Lord returns "in the air" to evacuate his family prior to the GT commonly referred to as the rapture. Then, we are changed in the "twinkling of an eye" receiving a new glorified body with major systems upgrades. A body like Jesus had after he was resurrected - "we shall be like him". It is a tangible, physical body capable of thriving in heaven and earth.

But even if we fall asleep in death before then, we will instantly be in the presence of the Lord. "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". - 2 Cor. 5: 8

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

PP, I get what you are saying since there has never been a culture found in history that didn't have some sort of religion. Also the phrase "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" is something that we all experience especially as we age.

But the issue here is Judeo-Christian belief found in scripture.

@Cofty,

Consider Psalm 49:15: “But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.” In Hebrew thought, Sheol was the place of the dead. In this passage, the Psalmist expresses confidence that God will ransom his “soul” from the place of the dead and receive the Psalmist to himself at some point after death.

Notice how his soul is characterized as "me". The bible uses pronouns for each of the parts of man - spirit, soul and body. Pronouns denote personhood and identity not things.

According to Dr. John Cooper, “There is virtual consensus that the Israelites did believe in some sort of ethereal existence after death in a place called Sheol.”

Consider the case of Saul and the medium of Endor (1 Samuel 28) Notice that Samuel, who had previously died, and whose body had been buried (v. 3), retains his personal identity in the shadowy underworld of Sheol. He still knows who he is, remembers Saul, and can function as the Lord’s prophet.

Jesus provides more clarification.

Mat 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And consider Rev. 6: 9-11

I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain

because of the word of God, and

because of the testimony which they had maintained;

and they cried out with a loud voice, saying,

“How long, O Lord, holy and true,

will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood

on those who dwell on the earth?”

And there was given to each of them a white robe;

and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer,

until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren

who were to be killed even as they had been,

would be completed also.

These dead souls in heaven could think, speak, remember, and be comforted just as we can because they are persons, just like us. I have highlighted the pronouns that characterize these dead souls who are talking as persons, not some sort of life principle or breath as the WT teaches.

29

Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K

by Sea Breeze in

what were we thinking?

mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.

Sea Breeze

John 1: 12 that Boogerman posted is particularly powerful in the KJV for JW's . Because there they correctly use the term "sons of god". I would use this version when presenting to JW's

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

A big WT doctrine is that ONLY the 144K are sons of God; whereas the bible says that sonship is available to "as many as receive him". Whom to believe? WT or God?

Boom - that WT deception is obliterated.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

@Cofty,

spirit, soul, and body (something completely unknown to Israel)

I think that is a pretty big overstatement. Saduucees didn't believe in a resurrection and may have had some ideas that correspond to materialists today. But certainly the Pharisees and Essenes believed man had a soul that departed (not was annihlated) at death.

Gen. 35: 16-19 - Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour. And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. And Rachel died, and was buried.

Clearly, biblical history records that a separation of soul and body happens at death. Of course, this predates Greek thought. So, it cannot be attributed to Plato like the WT tries to make people believe.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

Just having a new spirit in the here and now is enough to radically change a person's life.

1. You can know (not just hope) that you are saved.

2. The power of sin is broken in a person's life. (You can still sin in the flesh though)

3. A person can interact in a sinful environment and intellectually grasp the superiority of righteousness without having to personally be condemned for such sinful interaction.

4. Sweet fellowship with God in your spirit is beyond description.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

Charles Kelly talked on the subject of Salvation at a recent XJW conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6t2NybZJ48&t=2s

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

If someone kidnaps someone's child and the parent pays the ransom they are supposed to get their kid back yet Jesus paid the ultimate price with his death and nothing has changed for the human race.

If all we are is physical, then you have a point. The problem is that modern thinking is infected with Naturalistic Materialism. However, most cultures especially prior to the 20th century believed (as the bible teaches) that man also has an immaterial consciousness (soul).

There are many scriptures that describe salvation for a believing Christian in all three tenses - past present and future.

Here's how it works. The moment a person surrenders to Christ:

1. They receive a new spirit which cannot sin. (They have been saved) They are Justified. Sinless people get to interact with God. God personally interacts with the believer in their new spirit because righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness,and light no communion with darkness. The salvation of a persons spirit is immediate. It is a "downpayment" (earnest) on the full restoration to come.

2. Through Sanctification (being set apart) they "prove to themselves what is that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God". (They are being saved). This corresponds to the soul or mind and is an experiential process where the believer gets to know God and his ways over time.

3. When the redeemed are finally resurrected, they are reunited with bodies in Glorification. So, they will be saved.

So, each part of man is saved at different times for the believer. Each part of man is characterized as personhood in the bible... spirit, soul, & body... saved in that order. However, if a person is stuck in a materialism worldview, which the WT partially promotes, salvation will not appear as anything spectacular from this unbiblical worldview.

29

Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K

by Sea Breeze in

what were we thinking?

mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.

Sea Breeze

What were we thinking?

Mat_10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat_16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat_18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luk 6:47,48 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock

Luk_9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh_4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Joh_4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh_12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom. 8:9 ... if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

18

A problem, a provision, a promise

by JW Answers in

short message of help showing forth the correct gospel for today.. the problem with mankind, the provision for mankind, and a promise to mankind.. jws teach that works save.

the bible says that only christ saves if we believe / trust upon him..

Sea Breeze

Are you an atheist Cofty?